Forum:
Hi all,
Just signed up, wonder if if anyone can help me.
Just got my first Daihatsu a 1991 fourtrak, i am into off roading and wanted to get a diesel engined rig.
my question is this, the car has auto freewheeling front hubs, i am told that provided i put everything in nuetral i can flat tow the thing using an A frame.Can this be confirmed please
many thanks
Phil
Neutrality
Putting the transfer box into neutral effectively isolates the drivetrain and will allow the vehicle to be towed, this is done on the secondary lever, this detaches drive to the rear and front propshaft, the main gearbox can even be left in gear.
This is done to detatch drive from the wheels when using accessories such as winches, or other things which are engine driven, and require variable speed such as changing gear on the main gearbox to increase speed, with the vehicle unable to move.
towing
many thanks for your help,i have never been on line like this, i have replied to all i think.
thanks again,
Phil
It wont affect the auto
It wont affect the auto hubs, as they are only forces to work when drive is applied from the half shaft / drive shaft.
Any veiws expresed in this thread by me are purely from my own experience, and (sometimes) falible memory. Hope my comments help, but please don't take them as gospel.
Any veiws expresed in this thread by me are purely from my own experience, and (sometimes) falible memory. Hope my comments help, but please don't take them as gospel.
towing
hi,
many thanks for the info,think you are correct. Just out of interest i had a suzuki sj with manual freewheeling hubs and just used to set them in free when towing her to sites.
i have yet to get the Daihatsu off road but i am well impressed with what i see at the moment.
Still have loads to do, winch, shackle lift, air intake and the like but still what with the holiday season coming up the next outing is not until mid Sept, might be ready by then.
Again many thanks for your input.
Phil
If you are planing to do
If you are planing to do some heavy duty off roading (which it sounds like you are), you may want to look into changing the FWH's for manual ones. The problem with auto's is the way they work. If you go from forward to backward (or visa sersa) drive they drop out, and re-engage every time. Done with too mush oomph this can couse damage to them, or other parts of drive chain. Worth thinking on.
Any veiws expresed in this thread by me are purely from my own experience, and (sometimes) falible memory. Hope my comments help, but please don't take them as gospel.
Any veiws expresed in this thread by me are purely from my own experience, and (sometimes) falible memory. Hope my comments help, but please don't take them as gospel.
towing
Nev,
Thats interesting,is there a time lag bewtween trying to move and the hub drive kicking in?
regarding changing them for manuals, would there be much involved there?
i have changed manual hubs on Suzuki sj, would there be much diffence do you think?
many thanks,
Phil
There can be a lag. Just
There can be a lag. Just about enough for you to be giving it a medium amount of large when the thing locks up. Not a good look for drive shafts, CV's and the like.
As for changing. I was of the opinion that it was a direct replacment for the older manual FWH. However I have never owned a Daihats with auto's (only a Mitsubishi). I have been told recently that the auto FWH are bolted to the hub by 6 bolts? The older manual type are definatly 5 bolt. You can apperently bye replacment manuals from off road specialists such as Millner off road. However this is not cheap. It may be cheaper (if your truck is an older leaf sprung type) to by a whole front axle from one that's beeing brocken, and change the whole hub asembly (compleat with half shafts) over. Just split bye pulling the swivel housing barings (and the oil seal at the back of the housing).
Another random thought. Suzuki FWH are 6 stud? Prety sure SJ half shafts are smaller, but what about Vitara? Only a thought. not enough knolage to be even an educaited guess.
Any veiws expresed in this thread by me are purely from my own experience, and (sometimes) falible memory. Hope my comments help, but please don't take them as gospel.
Any veiws expresed in this thread by me are purely from my own experience, and (sometimes) falible memory. Hope my comments help, but please don't take them as gospel.
A Frames
Juat a note
The best thing ever invented but the Police are mixed on whether they are legal. According to the net they are illegal in most european countries although I have only been challenged once. They are supposidly fine if you are a boni-fide recovery garage recovering a stranded vehicle otherwise I think it depends on the Copper who challenges you.
I have found them better than the small car transporter I have and very safe but I suspect it comes under the laws of weight and breaking since the towed vehicle relies on the towing vehicle to stop it. The towed vehicle has to be below 750kg, I uderstand. The only problem I have had is the ground clearance on most cars being towed is insufficient to get the A frame beneath without removing the front spoilers. I towed an MGB back to the uk with one no problem at al other than the removal of the front vallence and bumper whilst surprisingly a Midget did the same trip in one piece. I have an A frame, almost new in the garage, which I would use to recover either of my Sportraks but the buggers never seem to stop so it remains as new
Good luck
OLDMINIMAN
M J Young
A FRAMES
Hi,
its all very confusing isnt it,i have used an a frame to tow around my old sj which what with the full rollcage,winch, all the slings and farm lift must had come in around the 1400kg mark.I have just picked up a fourtrak, removed the rear seats/ carpets/ front and rear bumper/ spare wheel and supporting bracket recon i am down to about 1900 kg, would the a frame take that? i know there would be an issue re braking just trying to get my head around what things can actually do as opposed to legal limits, not that i am intending to go breaking any laws.
Phil
You can get breaked a
You can get breaked a frames. They use an over run break (like any car trailer), which opperates a heavy break cable, which conects to the cars break peddel. Wonder how effective it is as the cars power assistence will be non exsistent, but better than nought?
Any veiws expresed in this thread by me are purely from my own experience, and (sometimes) falible memory. Hope my comments help, but please don't take them as gospel.
Any veiws expresed in this thread by me are purely from my own experience, and (sometimes) falible memory. Hope my comments help, but please don't take them as gospel.
breaked a frame
nev,
never heard of that...very interesting any idea where such a thing can be obtained?
thanks,
phil
No. A place to start may be
No. A place to start may be a caravan / campa centre though, as I've seen many of these set ups to tow Smart cars or the like behind campers.
Any veiws expresed in this thread by me are purely from my own experience, and (sometimes) falible memory. Hope my comments help, but please don't take them as gospel.
Any veiws expresed in this thread by me are purely from my own experience, and (sometimes) falible memory. Hope my comments help, but please don't take them as gospel.
towing
Nev,
thanks for that, still a bit confused, been looking around and you can buy an a frame rated at 2.5t with no brakes - how does that fit in with over 750kg must be braked?
item adversised as single man operation as well
thanks
Phil
The law (as I understand it)
The law (as I understand it) is not spesific on A frames. If you were stopped and the copper didn't like you he could do you for 'dangerous load' for instance. But I belive there is no law specifically for A frames. There is also a long standing debate (and diffrent coppers will give you diffrent answers on this too) as to wether a car must be road legal (ie taxed tested and insured) in order to be legal on an A frame. You can't even park on a public highway with a car that isn't taxec, so how can you tow one on an A frame? Maybe becouse then it's a trailer? But then surely it should come under the trailer laws? And so on, and on, and on... There doesn't seem to be any solid 'right' answer to this one.
Basicly though the A frame is meant to be for rescuing a road legal car to a garage for repair, without the need for a trailer. Beyond that it would be down to the disposition of the copper who stopes you.
Personally I wouldn't use one for draging a trials car around, as it is not a road legal car, and is probably obviously not. Also if you damage a spring for example while playing, then you will need to find a trailer to get it home.
I would poss use one to pull a road legal off roader, but then why not just drive it. And you are still left with the what to do if you break the suspention problem.
I guess that's just made the waters even muddier?
I would suggest that if you are really want to get it 'right', that you ask your local highway's copper. And if he comes back with a 'that's no problem', get it in writing, and signed. If he says 'no way', ask a diffrent copper...
Any veiws expresed in this thread by me are purely from my own experience, and (sometimes) falible memory. Hope my comments help, but please don't take them as gospel.
Any veiws expresed in this thread by me are purely from my own experience, and (sometimes) falible memory. Hope my comments help, but please don't take them as gospel.
A FRAMEs
I agree Nev there is a lot of confusion relating to the use of A frames and I spoke to a copper in Southend who was just as confused. HE agreed it is down to the Copper on the day.
My own A frame is also rated at 2.5T.
As for their use in Europe the French take a view, well the Gendames that stopped me did, that if the vehicle is road legal and below 750KG then it is OK. The SMART car and those AXIAM one cylinder pop pop cars are below the 750KG, but the critical area seems to be Road legal, insured, taxed and tested. Again they are ok for recovery firms to use. In France French insurance limits towing to 750kg. All trailers above that have to be registered, obviously with brakes, tested and separately insured and even have their own Registration number, not that of the towing vehicle. It may well be worth enquiring about the weight limits on UK insurance as it is no doubt similar and hidden in the small print.
Regardless I still think they are good items to have and yes as Nev says perhaps not good for pulling pure off roaders because of the legal issues and because of damage possibly done during use. But do check the small print on towing weight on your policies as all Insurers, maybe not NFU, will find a way out if given the chance.
OLDMINIMAN
PS there are some web sites on the use of A frames via Google, still confusing and confused opinion.
FROM TOURING AND TENTING
"I have a motor home and want to tow a Fiat Seicento behind it using an A-frame. This car has a kerb weight under 750 kg so am I legal with this outfit? Sorry no is the answer. The law regards this as an unbraked trailer and you are allowed to tow up to 750 kg Gross Trailer Weight, not a car?s kerb weight. The figure you have to use is the car?s Gross Vehicle Weight or Maximum Permitted Weight. This is usually at least 300 - 400 kg more than the kerb weight. We have no knowledge of any car sold in the UK that has a GVW under 750 kg. The only vehicle we know that is completely legal to tow with an A-frame is the French Aixam small "car". This is a full four seater and details can be obtained from Aixam UK on 01926 886100. An A-frame or dolly can only be used to recover a broken down vehicle to a place of safety. Transporting a car is, therefore, illegal. A-frames may be offered with a braking system that applies the car's brakes. These do not conform to the law as the car then becomes a "braked trailer" and has to conform to European Directives contained within the Construction and Use Regulations. It does not conform to the European Directive 71/320/EEC and amendments regarding braking requirements in any way. The use of this A-frame for transportation is illegal. It is still OK for use to recover a vehicle to a place of safety."
I have just looked at this directive and am even more confused. Why can't these bloody bereaucrats keep these clear, short and precise with clear directives? Perhaps to justify their fat salaries??
OMM
M J Young
towing
Nev,
thanks for your time on this one,as you say there are diffent views on the same subject it really muddies the water, the trouble i see myself having is with the sfuff i will be doing with the car, removing carpets,rear seats,bumpers, spare wheel etc then adding stuff mainly the winch i will be around the 1960 kg mark,my car will tow 2000 kg, if i go putting on a trailer as well i will blow the weight side of things.out of interest i will changing my car next march looking at the pickup market they seem to tow 3500kg so that would give me a bit to plat with as it were.
many thanks
Phil
Have a look at this page:
Have a look at this page: http://www.daihatsu-drivers.co.uk/node/1820
Any veiws expresed in this thread by me are purely from my own experience, and (sometimes) falible memory. Hope my comments help, but please don't take them as gospel.
Any veiws expresed in this thread by me are purely from my own experience, and (sometimes) falible memory. Hope my comments help, but please don't take them as gospel.
BRAKED A FRAME.
i HAVE HEARD OF THESE, NOT SURE HOW YOU GET THE CABLE TO THE PEDAL WITHOUT SOME CUTTING AND OF COURSE THE SRVO WON'T WORK . i'D ASSUME BEING THAT A NEW a FRAME IS £250+ SOME KIND OF BRAKED ONE WOULD BE AS MUCH AS A TRAILER. nOT SURE HOW YOU STAND ON A "DOLLY WHERE THE FRONT WHEELS ARE LIFTED. i SUSPECT THE SAME RULE APPLIES.
oldminiman
M J Young
Overrun Braking Systems
Over run braking systems do not connect to the cars brake pedal, the trailer towing hitch is telescopic and has either a spring or hydraulic ram inside. The weight of the towed vehicle pushes forwards and compresses the telescopic hitch when braking, this cable is connected to the telescopic section, and applies the trailer brakes. This gives proportion to braking load, and vehicle speed, an overcentre handbrake is also connected to a spring loaded energy store, a breakaway cable is also connected. If the trailer becomes detached it pulls the handbrake of the trailer on, thus stopping it and its load.
Upon reversing, when a certain load is applied to the brakes, the reverse rotation of the wheels and this load collapses a highly sprung section of the brakes, thus allowing you to reverse without braking action. When you stop or move forwards again, these springs reinstate the brake shoes to their original position, thus allowing normal braking again.
Clarification
Clarification of towing with A frames appears confusing, but is relatively simple.
Towing anything above 750Kg including A frame requires a braked A frame to be used, anything below this weight does not require a braked A frame.
You are not allowed to tow a motor vehicle on an A frame unless it is taxed, MOT'd and insured on the public highway for general movements of vehicles. If you are towing a scrap vehicle to a breakers you are allowed to have it untaxed, no MOT, and no insurance, as long as the towing vehicle is insured to tow another vehicle. Many insurance policies only allow you to tow a trailer less than 750KG, unless you have additional insurance to cover this.
Motor traders, and garages often do this as they have a tow vehicle which is insured to tow other vehicles, in connection with their business, and they are exempt under an exclusion clause in the law, this is where a lot of confusion arises. Many often recover stolen vehicles which are effectively and legally not insured, and as Police often recover the tax disc, effectively untaxed.
Police enforcement is confusing as it is down to individual police forces interpretation of the legislation, and many forces do not yet have a policy on prosecution.
Stick to a braked trailer, notify your insurers, pay the addition to your premuim and be safe in the knowledge that if stopped you are fully road legal, fully insured, and individual Police forces interpretation of the legislation is irrelevant.
CLARIFICATION
I agree with assassin, don't get caught with yer pants down!!!
OLDMINIMAN
M J Young
towing
many thanks for that its well clear now
Phil
Irony
irony reared its head today while in conversation with a friend in the motor trade, one major auction group has revised its policy on sold vehicle movements.
New policies have been introduced by them regarding vehicle movements from their auction sites, these affect both trade, and private buyers.
Private buyers can only use their, or other vehicle movers who use approved towing apparatus, or vehicles, these are vehicles such as low loaders, car transporters, etc. They are allowed to tow them away themselves, on a car transporting trailer if they take a current copy of their insurance which clearly states the towing vehicle is fully insured to tow a car transporting trailer loaded with another motor vehicle. They are allowed to drive them away if they are proven to have tax, MOT, and insurance.
Trade buyers are subject to similar rules, but must prove themselves as legitimate businesses, lodge a copy of their business insurance policy with the auction group, stating they are fully to drive any vehicle, and have a business account with them.
Traders are allowed to use their own legal car transportation methods, as long as they comply with legal requirements, and are registered with the auction house.
A frames are banned for all users, the reason; negligence, the auction group has to take all reasonable precautions to ensure that all vehicle movements to and from their site are undertaken safely and legally.
Failure to do this can result in a fine of up to £100,000 per offence for the auction house.
Thought i would share this little snippet.
towing
Hi assissin,
that makes interesting reading,thi whole towing thing is a can of worms huh, out of interest i can my leasing company a call to clarify where i stand with them and the feed back is providing the towing equipment used is solid ie frame/dolly/trailer then everything post towing ball is covered by the group insurance policy, providing i do not tow greater that 2000 kg and that the trailer or frame is braked. Needless to say i have asked for that in writing!
Thanks for your input i am finding the issue really quite interesting albeit confusing!
Phil
Towing
Thanks for that bit of info, adds power to the elbow of the law a bit.
Any one considering towing should I suggest check the small print of their Insurance policies as well as the weight of whatever they are towing along with the trailer.
OLDMINIMAN
M J Young