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Unleaded fuel is fast disappearing in the land of OZ.Have had bad experiences with E10 unleaded.What premium fuel should I upgrade to,and should I alter the static timing to suit my little charade?
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Don't you mean Leaded?
Unleaded disapearing in OZ? Don't you mean Leaded? Or is Australia now using a different fuel type now? Plenty of Unleaded in Europe
Edited to add:
If it is leaded that has disapeared then can you not use a leaded based replacement in the unleaded fuel? This is something that has been used here in the UK for years since unleaded disapeared off the fuel forecourts here for over 20 years now. Failling that you will need to look at getting the engine looked at for unleaded fuel.
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'12' Plate Mazda MX-5 2.0 litre NC 3.5 Venture Roadster 160BHP
'15' Plate SEAT LEON 184 FR TDI. 240BHP/500nm Torque.
Past: '53' Plate Yellow YRV Turbo Approx. 150BHP
leaded or unleaded
I thought that at first read but think he means that standard unleaded 95ron is being phased out for higher octane like what we call super unleaded 97ron and how the higher octane affects the old Charade?
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Current- 04 Silver YRV TURBO
Past- 91 Charade GTti, 89 Charade GTti, 98 1.3 Hi-Jet.
A friend in need is a friend indeed, a friend always in need, an Effin nuisance
If thats the case Dave it
If thats the case Dave it shouldnt be a problem to have a higher octane unleaded fuel
Less Detination on the engine for starters 
Be interested to see what the OP comes back with to this.
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'12' Plate Mazda MX-5 2.0 litre NC 3.5 Venture Roadster 160BHP
'15' Plate SEAT LEON 184 FR TDI. 240BHP/500nm Torque.
Past: '53' Plate Yellow YRV Turbo Approx. 150BHP
E10 unleaded is unleaded
E10 unleaded is 90% unleaded blended with 10% ethanol. It is becoming quite common in some countries. Is also available in France and across europe quite a bit. Not a problem when used in modern cars, But 1980's and earlier perhaps it could be.
Here is 2009 article from the telegraph..
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/5795480/British-tourists-warned-over-damaging-French-fuel.html
Perhaps you will have to buy and use a fuel additive to pour in the tank for such a old car.
Evil Oxygen
Braincon,
This is a good question because it raises some much wider issues over and above your immediate question. My answer to your question is at the end so you will have to read it all – I got carried away. It got me thinking though so I have penned some stuff about the wider issues first.
Just to clarify. You are stating that ‘normal’ unleaded 100% petrol is being phased out for a new and ‘improved’ unleaded petrol that is a mix of 90% ‘normal’ unleaded petrol and 10% ethanol.
There are essentially two issues with ethanol blend petrol. Firstly, ethanol has some undesirable effects on the materials of fuel systems that are not designed to cope with it. Due to ethanol having a higher oxygen content it is corrosive so modern cars have systems made of materials designed to deal with this. A steel fuel tank, as just one example, will not thank you for showing it ethanol over a period of time, and the same goes for any other steel parts involved in the fuel system. Possibly some rubber hosing may suffer as well if not designed for ethanol.
Secondly, there are drivability problems because ethanol has more oxygen in it and subsequently it affects the fuel/air mixture balance. ECU controlled engines use Lambda sensors (oxygen sensors) to trim the fuel/air ratio by measuring exhaust gas oxygen. So with more oxygen in the equation the system will lean off the fuel to attempt to bring the ratio back to the correct parameter. My hope is that modern systems have additional coping mechanisms to shift other parameters around to make it all play nicely together again.
In EUland the general rule is that vehicles pre 2000 ish will have problems and ones after year 2000 ish will be ok. We shall see about that when we go to the full 10% mix this year (2013) and bear in mind we are already at a 5% blend. I suspect I will be ok in my 2008 Sirion as regards the materials of my fuel system, but I am still pondering the drivability thing. Also ethanol has a naturally higher octane rating than petrol so adding this into the equation is just something else to consider – although I am sure the petrol companies will adjust accordingly and octane will remain the same.
So getting back to your question, and bearing in mind that your car is a carburettor type engine, you can forget all the guff about oxygen sensors and fuel trimming. My guess is your problems will relate to the incompatibility of fuel system materials and the corrosion aspect. I am not a scientist and this answer is my best educated guess. Your question has got me thinking though.
Regards
Phil
E10 Compatibility
Braincon,
I have been poking around the www on this E10 petrol blend topic and I found this Australian website listing compatible vehicles.
http://www.fcai.com.au/publications/all/all/all/3/can-my-vehicle-operate-on-ethanol-blend-petrol-
For us UK people I can find no such website but bearing in mind the world is a global village these days I am happy to take what the Oz website states for us here. Car manufacturers have been given notice for years about this E10 blend coming and their production materials have been adjusted globally accordingly I would be quite certain.
It appears this E10 blend in the UK is only going to apply to the lower octane petrol, so I guess if you are in doubt the high octane petrol will be your choice in UK. My Sirion only needs the UK low octane but if I feel a change in performance I don't like I will probably go with mixing the two octane petrol types to merely dilute the E10 - I don't need the high octane for it's octane rating.
I think this topic will be a watch and wait one.
Regards
Phil
E10 Compatability
After reading your post and the other comments, I have decided to start using 95 RON from now on, to be on the safe side, as pure unleaded 91 petrol disappears from the land of Oz.Yes, it is 10 cents a litre more at the pump,but is a small price to pay for peace of mind!Thank you all for your analysis and helpful advice.Cheers from braincon in Oz.
braincon from oz
"ECU controlled engines use
"ECU controlled engines use Lambda sensors (oxygen sensors) to trim the fuel/air ratio by measuring exhaust gas oxygen. So with more oxygen in the equation the system will lean off the fuel to attempt to bring the ratio back to the correct parameter. "
Bit picky, but that does not appear to make sense.
If there's more oxygen in the fuel, the mixture is made leaner, so the system will richen the mixture (add more fuel) to get back to the stochiometric ratio.
If it does that, there is no effect on drivability, since its self-adjusting, and has self-adjusted. It'll just use more fuel.
There may be an effect when the system is running in (non-stochiometric) open loop, (e.g at high power outputs) which (I think) is normally done using volumetric fuel-air maps. Since the fuel value is lower, there may be power loss, but at high power outputs fuel is often in excess for charge cooling, so there may be no effect. Similarly for carbs.
Other effects I've heard of are atmospheric water absorption, which is probably only likely to be an issue if you don't drive much, and greater fuel volatility leading to vapour-lock problems, especially likely in hot climates.
I'm not sure the problem is necessarily avoided by using higher octane fuel, since that higher octane may be achieved by more alcohol.
Lean times
Edlithgow,
Firstly I don’t think it is being picky. Healthy discussion is good. And I do see where you are coming from with my statement regarding the lambda leaning the fuel off if higher ethanol content fuel is used. It does sound counter-intuitive I agree. You would think it would squirt more fuel in.
However.
When it comes to an ethanol blend fuel which naturally contains higher oxygen content itself the lambda will sense more unburnt oxygen, so to address this the ecu will (on direction from the lambda) trim the fuel down to correct it. If as you say the fuel will trim up, what will actually happen is it will introduce even more oxygen (ethanol has more oxygen in it) and the lambda won’t like it and it will tell the ecu to correct it and it will trim the fuel down, not up.
In short the more ethanol that is squirted in the more oxygen is also being squirted in so the fuel regulating system will reduce fuel volume to eradicate the excess oxygen. The engine cannot change the amount of air (oxygen) it sucks in but it can alter the amount of fuel and that is the mechanism it uses to maintain the oxygen ratio.
The net result is the engine will be running lean all the time, which is the drivability problems I mentioned – running hotter is one example. The ecu is doing the best it can to maintain unburnt oxygen levels and if it has no other coping mechanisms it will permanently run in a compromised setting of lean fuel.
As for stoichiometric ratios, they do vary with different fuel blends of fuel. The ideal industry standard for petrol engines I think you refer to only really applies to 100% proper petrol, but when additives are introduced the stoich ratio will change. A lambda controlled emission petrol engine will end up with a reduced the stoich ratio if ethanol is introduced. It runs lean.
Hope this helps.
Regards
Phil
Lean times
I think it sounds counter intuitive because its wrong. Not always the case, of course, but usually the way to bet.
When you introduce extra ethanol fuel, you do introduce some more oxygen, but its dwarfed by the extra carbon you introduce. Even pure ethanol is still massively carbon-rich. This means the fuel air ratio (which is whats important) is richened, and the free oxygen (after combustion of the extra fuel) which I think is what the lamda sensor measures, will go down.
This in turn means that narrow-band oxygen sensors can correctly control fuel/air ratios in ethanolic fuels until the proportion of ethanol gets above about, IIRC, 20%.
Above that level the system has to be re-designed because (due to the relatively lower carbon content) the additional volume of fuel required to achieve a stochiometric ratio is greater than it was designed to deliver.
At that point it'll tend to run lean, but it'll probably also throw an oxygen sensor error code.
I think.
We may have to agree to disagree
I stand by my assertions.
OK, we both agree that when ethanol is introduced it brings in more oxygen. However you then go on to say that this is then out-weighed by the extra carbon brought in by the ethanol and thus makes for a richer mixture.
You have overlooked the fact that to make the fuel blend, a portion of petrol has to be removed to make room for the ethanol being added, which is replaced by the ethanol portion that has more oxygen thus raising the oxygen content of the total fuel proportionally. Any extra carbon brought in by the ethanol is negated (and some) by the loss of the petrol. You got to take something out to make room for the other thing.
Incidentally ethanol is 35% oxygen.
So volume for volume of blended fuel the Lambda sensor will see more unburnt oxygen and it will trim the fuel delivery and lean it out. It is counter-intuitive but it is correct.
Oddly you sort of agree with me in your last paragraph. I paraphrase you now and you state that beyond a certain blend percentage the system will run lean, and systems now can adapt to the lower blends we see today. I clarified my post by stating ‘My hope is that modern systems have additional coping mechanisms to shift other parameters around to make it all play nicely together again’. If it can’t cope your motor will run lean.
My head hurts.
Regards
Phil
correct fuel to use in mid 80s charade
Sorry,should have made it a bit clearer.There has been a mandate in NSW, Australia to add 10% ethanol to all unleaded petrol.In some towns only E10 is available at the pumps already!Have recently had road service out with vapour lock problems in our hot weather!Opinions vary as to how to deal with older vehicles.Cheers braincon.
braincon from oz