Forum:
Hi,
I apologise in advance if this subject has been thrashed to death but I am after a little info/views.
I have been waiting till spring to try bio diesel in my 98'fourtrak. My local bio diesel farm is selling at 75p/lt (is this reasonable?) and says my 4x4 will run on bio diesel with no problem either 100% or 50/50 if I prefer. They recommended my fuel filter is changed at commencement and at 6 monthly intervals thereafter. I have tried small amounts of rapeseed oil from Asda and this went ok but never exceeded say 20% of the main tank. I am aware of the potential problems over winter and am prepared to switch to say 80% fore court in the winter months.As a pensioner and caravan tower the fuel price bit is bitting hard. Appreciate views of any members running successfully on bio diesel together with any obvious risk factors. I should add my (ex) mechanic swears against bio-diesel or veg oil but I understand most trained motor mechanics will be of like mind?
thanks in advance
6040howard
If it's properly prodused
If it's properly prodused Bio Diesel then it should be a direct replacment for Dino-Diesel. Good for any Diesel engine 100%.
The Methonol mixed in thins the oil, and (if mixed at the proper proportions) nutralises the acids. Dino-D is PH nutral. This nulifies the 2 problems with running veg oil.
Have a look at this page, and the web site it linkes to: http://www.daihatsu-drivers.co.uk/node/8435
Any veiws expresed in this thread by me are purely from my own experience, and (sometimes) falible memory. Hope my comments help, but please don't take them as gospel.
Any veiws expresed in this thread by me are purely from my own experience, and (sometimes) falible memory. Hope my comments help, but please don't take them as gospel.
Raped
Problems arise from many areas, the biggest problem is of those people generalising.
Modern diesel engines controlled by electronics will to some degree, tolerate lower grade fuels, or bio diesels; Fourtrak's are not in this category. These engines electronic programmes control many parameters of the engine itself, electronically; and have a degree of latitude to alter settings to best cope with these fuels, basic diesel engines such as Fourtrak's and older diesel engines do not have this luxury.
Older engines suffer to a large degree from the tolerances within the injection system not being able to deal with anything other than standard fuel. Other problems come from the materials used for wearing or sealing components within the injection system, these are usually O rings, these rely upon the fuel to provide lubrication for these components. Failure to provide adequate lubrication ensures these critical components degrade or break down, in much the same way filling the sump with water instead of engine oil would trash the engine.
Fuels supplied in Europe have to meet unified standards, this ensures manufacturers, and aftermarket suppliers of fuel system components know what they are dealing with, and manufacture accordingly. Again, most of these posts are based on the assumption that people are purchasing oils from the local supermarket and blending their own, these lack many of the essential requirements the fuel system needs to work efficiently and correctly.
Kits are available to manufacture your own bio diesel, these are usually supplied by fuel manufacturers, BP being the biggest supplier. These have the technical support, and necessary additives available to manufacture appropriate fuels to European standards. Here is the problem? if the producer does not use the equipment properly, or provide the correct additives, you could end up paying the price in engine damage. These manufacturers of such equipment also stipulate the fuel is to be used in modern engines such as electronically controlled units, and often put a disclaimer in stating for older diesel engines, it is at your own risk.
As can be seen, it is not open and shut, or particularly clear cut, so in essence everyone is right and also wrong. To give an indication of who recommends what, use the official figures below:
BMW - 80 / 20 bio diesel
Citroen 70 / 30 bio diesel
Ford 90 / 10 bio diesel
Volvo 80 / 20 bio diesel
Peugeot 80 / 20 bio diesel
As we can see the same engines used by differing manufacturers have different recommendations, but the good news is that from 2009 all engines will have to be capable of running on 10% bio diesel as a minimum.
Ultimately, you pays your money and takes your choice, and the risks.
Veg Oil/Bio Diesel
'91 Fourtrak 2.8 TDX
As 'assassin' states there is no truth out there, at the moment !!!. The advice is conflicting, both for Bio Diesel and the home brew types like me, as I run a 50/50 ,new rapeseed oil/diesel mix, let alone the guys reworking fast food outlet oil, with all its contaniments, meat/fish residues.
The Fourtrak engine is a pretty basic, traditional /old style unit, including the fuel system, in my case it seems,to be quite tolerant to a 50/50 mix (new veg oil). Long term I have no idea as to the impact this fuel will have on the engine/fuel system, ( clock + 50 thou, milage) but I listen/read and respect as to what others have to say on the matter, not only on this website.
I have a MOT due in April and will be interested to see the results of the smoke test, as it has been increasing on the last two tests, both taken with a 50/50 mix, immediatly after a service, though not at the testing station ( air filter included).
I have though come to a decision on the max veg oil mix I would use, that is 50/50,(all year), due to requirements of the lubrication of the fuel pump ,re suggested breakdown of 'O' rings and seals, and the pressure developed within the fuel system, re the increase density of a veg oil /diesel mix,rather than straight diesel, and winter starting.
Lots of info on other sites re- piston ring carbonisation/wear, injector fowling/carbonisation, oil contaminatin/leading to lack of lubrication, ect
I have done oil and filter changes at the specified intervals , a basic mineral oil, followed with a tank full of straight diesel + injector/piston ring additive. Oil consumption has not increased over the time. With no noticable loss in performance.
If i find this veg oil/diesel mix has caused problems, I will post that info on the site. And all posting are relevant to my experience.
Edward (ews)
Edward (ews) '92 Fourtrak 2.8 TDX
Reply To
Reading Edwards observations with interest, as i often do with many posts, i would add the following.
Fourtrak's were made to operate within many environments, some wetter than the UK, some drier than the UK, and many Asian markets where there is far more in the way of dust. Due to these factors, and the fact that the 2.8 engine produces a low output of less than 100 BHP from 2.8 litres capacity; you can do the maths, means that it is more tolerant to these fuels than most diesel engines.
Problems arise when such items as the fuel injection pumps are rebuilt or reconditioned, many independent outfits use components from aftermarket suppliers, which are perfectly suitable for European operation, but not as suitable for world operation. Due to these factors, many pumps using these components may be more prone to excessive wear.
Proven methods to protect your engine are:
Use a semi synthetic 10/40 engine oil, this is actually thinner in use while maintaining the viscosity, in practice this dissipates many contaminants that mineral oils do not. As this oil contains semi synthetic additives, it suspends the particles which it cannot break down, more effectively and transports them to the oil filter more efficiently. NEVER, NEVER NEVER use fully synthetic engine oil in a Fourtrak, the engine clearances are far too large.
Reduce your engine oil and filter service intervals by one third, engines with 3000 mile oil changes should be reduced to 2000 miles. Engines with 6000 mile oil changes should be reduced to 4000 miles.
Every sixth tank of fuel should be pure diesel, reduce your tank level as low as you dare go without dragging up crap, fill with neat diesel, and add a good fuel system cleaning additive, do not use a cheap one.
Quality cleaners will clean the fuel system, injectors, and the internals of the engine, most will relubricate the internals of the injection pump and negate to a large degree, the damage from inadequate lubrication.
Keep your fuel tank as full of fuel as possible, bio fuels are not as tolerant of water as pure diesel, keeping the tank full ensures the minimum air space, and minimises the potential for condensation to form.
bio diesel
Hi,
many thanks to nev k,assassin and ews for your comments and pointing me to other relevant sites. I agree the evidence suggests the regular use of bio diesel/ veg oil is not clear cut by any means. I suspect I was hoping for more cases of successful use and therefore a statistical argument for bio diesel.
Because there is a strong economical argument to use bio-diesel I am going to proceed with caution by
-- changing the oil and oil filter each 3000 miles
-- changing the fuel filter every 6 months
-- consider the use of fuel cleaning additives
-- not exceed 50/50 fore court/bio diesel
-- in winter switch to 80/20 mixture.
-- occassionally run full tank of fore court diesel
-- keep the fuel tank as full as possible to reduce condensation
-- use good quality semi-synthetic engine oil
I will let you know how things progress later in 2008
thanks again
6040howard
on occasion
On occassion i use veg oil mixed with 70% diesal, even then i noticed a difference on a cold day, but anyway, when it comes to using fuel cleaners - how often have people been putting them in the fuel system just out of interest from the basic point of fact that these cost a small fortune and if your using small amounts of fuel over time are you really making that much of a saving?????
Full of ideas but no time to do them!!
www.bloodredoffroad.com
www.milneroffroad.com
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youtube: Redfourtrack
Cost
I agree, exccessive use of these injector/ring/fuel system cleaners, would soon negate any saving one has made , at £15/20 a shot. Re, that I use a 50/50 veg oil mix, I put a cleaner through twice a year,when I do oil changes, related to the time of year/use and and milage , Ie- i do a oil change pre winter, than again in the spring prior to my MOT (april), as my winter milage though small is usally short journeys. The summer brings in high milage and lots of motorway driving, and I do not skimp on oil changes. Oil/filter replacment is cheap compared to problems with lubrication, straight diesel or veg mix
I would use these cleaners even if I was not running a veg oil mix, perhaps I have believed the hype/advertising for these products. Though I do not understand how they work !!!!, perhaps 'assassin ' could post re this subject.
Edward (ews)
Edward (ews) '92 Fourtrak 2.8 TDX
How Cleaners Work
Many thanks Edward (EWS) remind me to apply a swift steel toecap to a delicate part of your anatomy for nominating me for this one; if I ever see you.
Fuel system cleaners work in several ways, it depends upon several factors, and how much cleaning the particular additive actually does, some clean the fuel and injection components themselves, while others clean the entire engine.
Articles such as this are too complex to go into in depth, so it will be about how a cleaner cleans the fuel injection system and the combustion chambers, please bear in mind that this is a generalisation.
Cleaners are added to the fuel as this is the best way to penetrate the entire system, and the combustion chamber, most are what is called slow acting. Detergents bind themselves to the molecules of certain diesel components and pass through the system, as they pass through they soften up the various deposits, and the movement of the fuel removes this slowly and allows it to pass into the combustion chamber. These removed deposits are burned away through the combustion process, and passed through the exhaust gases.
This process occurs slowly so as not to pass too much debris through the injection components, leading to clogging, damage from abrasion, or interfering with the delicate clearances within fuel injection equipment.
Stage two is to allow other additives in the cleaner to rejuvinate certain items within the injection system such as rubber O rings for example, these chemicals act upon them to reinstate them to as new condition. In addition to this, other additives will coat the injection components to help deposits from reforming, some will actually bond to the metallic components and in some cases, fill microscopic scratches in metallic components, thus improving the condition slightly, of wearing parts.
Stage three is where the injection cleaner is burned in the combustion chamber, this is designed to vapourise and act as a cleaning gas within the combustion chamber itself. Once turned into a gas from the combustion heat, natural air movement, or swirl as it is called, moves this to all parts of the combustion chamber, piston tops, and valves and cleans deposits off them slowly. Some of these gases pass the piston rings through natural leakage and act upon the engine breather system and work on deposits within these, they usually only fetch off the worst deposits here, but regular use is beneficial.
Stage four is where these combustion gases containing the cleaning gas work through the exhaust, they clean the exhaust manifold and the exhaust system itself. Soot deposits are removed, and oil contamination is loosened, allowing it to burn and turn into soot, this is then removed by the cleaning gases.
Hope this is of use, although it is simplified to allow all users of the site to understand the principles of how cleaner works.