THE GOOD OLD VEG OIL!

Forum: 

we all know its possible to run your truck on a percentage mix of veg oil with no mods to the truck.

you can run the truck on pure veg oil if you do various modifications.

you can make bio deisel from waste chip fat and run your truck on that.

But someone has told me you can mix parrafin/kerroseen (what oil central heating systems run on) with a little veg oil or 2 stroke oil around 2% mix and run a engine on that? CAN ANYONE CONFIRM THATS POSSIBLE?

also are there anyother oils you can stick thru the tank like fourtrak deisel engine?
only ask as we have had a hydralic fluid change in the machines at work and theres about 300ltrs of old hydralic oil sat in containers out the back.

Can i put this in my engine with a little deisel? anyone recon it will blow my engine to bits?

any other suggestions on suitable fuels?

veg oil

Hi, I tried veg oil for a while but the smell knocked me sick, as far as i know central heating oil is basically white diesel, as you say a parrafin mix. This time of year central heating oil is bad on startup and smokes a bit because the oil companies add a wax to stop it freezing. Sorry never heard of a 2 stroke mix being used in a diesel. I'm not sure about the hydraulic fluid as to combust properly under compression the oil has to have a molecular structure of hydrocarbons similar to diesel, like veg oil which is close as, which is why it works. I recently looked into lpg and found you can run a diesel/lpg mix which burns more efficiently and lowers fuel consumption plus lpg is cheap. but conversion is £1400+vat for a 2765cc fourtrak TD. So back to good oil diesel for me for now!

1985 Fourtrak 2.8, Intercooler, 4"Lift, on 31,10.5,15 Grizzly Claws.

1985 Fourtrak 2.8turbo, Spring over axel, on 35,12.5,15s

I also looked into the LPG co

I also looked into the LPG conversion. A company in Kent who specalise in LPG conversions told me the Deisel one isn't worth the money. As it will take about 100,000 miles to get your money back. Also the increased performence is a falicy, as a properly instaled system includes turning down the fule pump. If this is not done the engine will perform better (with less afficiancy), but will tend to over rev. A dangerous proposition for a Deisle. In there opinion this conversion is only worth wile on a brand new lorry, which is going to be run until it dies by the same company. And then only just.
As for other things a Deisle engine will burn. Don't forget this engine is named for it's creator, not the fule it runs on (Derv / Heavy Oil). A Deisle engine will basicly run on any combustible material (in a mist / partical cloud form) that you can make a delivery system for. Some coal mines used to run Deisle engines on coal dust.
As for the Daihatsu lump. Any oil will burn to a certain extent, with some oils being harder to get started than others due to a lowere combustion tempriture. Pre-heating the fule can help with this. Also the fule on must Deisle (car/truck) engines helps to lubricat the fule pump, so anything too refined (like petrol) could damage the pump. Also a fule with too high an octain count could cause the engine to over rev. This can be fixed by turning the fule pump down, and should give better fule consumption, as you use less fule to get the same power output.
Forgetting the flights of fancy or majour adaptaions though. The safest method is a 50/50 mix Derv to Veg oil (used & filtered /new). Don't forget that excise is due for this though. However doing it legaly is still cheaper than bying 100% Derv, if you can sort through the minfeild of paperwork.
Have a look at this page: http://www.daihatsu-drivers.co.uk/node/3963
And this page, and the pages liked from it: http://www.daihatsu-drivers.co.uk/node/3742

Any veiws expresed in this thread by me are purely from my own experience, and (sometimes) falible memory. Hope my comments help, but please don't take them as gospel.

A 2.8 Turbo Daihatsu motor wi

A 2.8 Turbo Daihatsu motor will run quite well on a diesel/vege oil mix. I am doing this at the moment. Aquiring used oil from basically anywhere I can. Filtering it through a coffee filter to remove the big lumps, then letting it settle for a week or so, then syphoning clear oil off the top, heating it, and refiltering through a finer filter. Then into the tank at about 50/50. Fuel is then filtered 3 times between tank and motor, through 3 CAV water trap filters.
No problems running on this for the last 6 months or so, except sometimes takes longer to pre heat in the morning, and having to either carry a spare filter element, or ability to bypass first on car filter, as when it blocks with particles, it suddenly reduces power dramatically. At least I know it is doing its job.
Also, being in Oz, the legal side of things is a little different.

Cheers
David

Growing old is compulsary, growing up isnt, and MUD MAKES EXCELLENT TOOTHPASTE.
Please visit http://groups.msn.com/AussieDaihatsuRocky/_whatsnew.msnw
All views and advice offered are my own, from my own experiences. Take such advice at your own risk.

Growing old is compulsary, growing up isnt.
MUD MAKES EXCELLENT TOOTHPASTE.
I use billion dollar satellites, to find Tupperware.
Please visit http://groups.msn.com/AussieDaihatsuRocky/_whatsnew.msnw
All views and advice offered are my own, from my ow

the heating oil thing needs c

the heating oil thing needs clarifiing. normal heating oil is clear in colour( i think that is 28 sec) the other one (30 something sec) has a red dye added and is the red diesel that farmers use. red diesel and derv (diesel engine road vehicles) are the same except for the red dye and the amount of tax. old heating boilers could be run on red diesel if the jet was changed, new boilers are made of thinner steel and rot out if fueled with diesel. we used to use one tank for the heating and tractors but had to change to heating oil when a new boiler (and 2nd tank) was installed about 5 years ago. u can run any diesel on red but its a fine and possible conviscation if you're caught. They used to dip landrover tanks at the local cattle market on a regular basis. ive been driving diesels on road for at least 20 years and never been stopped.

your right

your right about the smell - like a rancid chipshop. dead giveaway to any c&e guys who might catch a wiff

still, the 4trak will run on up to 70% mix of vegeoil without any mods doing due to nice wide nozzles meaning less restriction for the pump - and in fact runs better than staight dino - all at £1.25 per 3litre container from asda - is it worth it though - technically you`ll have to register as a producer and pay the duty at £0.25 per litre so that cuts into your profit - then you`ve got the hassle of picking it up and disposing of all the old 3litre bottles.....

28sec oil.

Central heating oil is 28sec. There is a thicker heating version of 32sec used in those big iron kitchen cookers. I understand that 28sec is exactly the same as diesel but 28sec is without additives which might prevent hotspots blowing holes in the cylinder heads. There is an agent within 28sec, which indicates your running on no-tax fuel. A hefty fine and vehicle confiscation, if you get dipped at a police checkpoint.

veg oil

In answer to your question, my mate runs a pug 306td (not hdi or common rail) on 10 quids worth of diesel and 25 litres of veg oil. he has done for the last 8 months with no probs so far even in the cold. The engine has not been modified in any way. So yes the veg oil method does work in that particular vehicle, but as we all know all vehicles have different componant manufacturers and what works in 1 might not work in another.

As for other fuel methods you mention I have had no knowledge of anyone trying this. The only way to test the veg oil in your motor is to try it and see what happens it might work ok it might not, so bare that in mind before your chuck it in your tank if it all goes the way of the pear it could turn out very expensive it all depends if your willing to take the chance it could save you a few quid or it could cost you a packet.

So in short yes it works ok in a pug 306dt £10 worth diesel and 25 litres of veg oil. hope thats of some help

Veg Oil

I've heard that oil from the chip shop is a bad idea. Basically, most chip shops fry meat (saus/fish, etc) which produces animal fat. This goes from solid to liquid at a much higher temp than veg fat so most of the time it sits in a solid lump at the bottom of the fuel tank.

Don't think I've got the time to filter (and would that clean the oil enough?) so veg oil it is.

Does anyone know if the newer models of FourTrak are more delicate with regards to mixing in veg oil (mine's a 1999 model and I don't want to upset her now she has stopped misbaving with an electrical problem).

Thanks

N Cruse

veg oil (SVO)

ok peeps as the spammers have us at the moment i thought i would try and clear this one up once and for all

as of .01.07.2007 if you produce (use)less then 2500 ltrs per year(48 ltr per week) you DO NOT have to register with C&E you still have to keep the receipts of purchase for 6 years in case of stops etc but you do not have to register or pay tax on it.

If however you mix the SVO with, a tagged kerosene thinner you are breaking the law.

If you use red diesel in any form you are breaking the law

As for used oil you will have to filter it first but it CAN be used,

Golden West Transport (McDonalds) have announced they are to start running their trucks on it (collected from the restaurants)

Bucks / Berks fire service are starting to run their vchs on it

If you run 100% SVO you will need to fit and in line fuel heater as it can be a bugger to start in the cold

Below is the letter I received form C&E

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS
2007 No. 1640
EXCISE
The Biofuels and Other Fuel Substitutes (Payment of Excise Duties etc) (Amendment) Regulations 2007
Made - - - - 8th June 2007
Laid before Parliament 8th June 2007
Coming into force - - 30th June 2007
The Commissioners for Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs(a) make the following Regulations in exercise of the powers conferred by section 118A(1) and (2) of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979(b), sections 6AC(1)(a) and (4), 6AF(1)(a) and (4), 21(1)(a) of, and paragraphs 3 and 11 of Schedule 3 to the Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1979(c), section 1(1), (3)(a) and (6)(a) of the Finance (No 2) Act 1992(d) and regulation 3(1)(e) of the Biofuels and Other Fuel Substitutes (Payment of Excise Duties etc) Regulations 2004(e) :
Citation and commencement

1. These Regulations may be cited as the Biofuels and Other Fuel Substitutes (Payment of Excise Duties etc) (Amendment) Regulations 2007 and come into force on 30th June 2007.

2. The Biofuels and Other Fuel Substitutes (Payment of Excise Duties etc) Regulations 2004 are amended as follows.

Amendment of Part 1

3.—(1) Amend regulation 2 as follows.

(2) Renumber regulation 2 as paragraph (1) of regulation 2.

(3) In the definition of “entered premises for “regulation 8” substitute “regulation 8A or 8E”.

(4) After the definition of “entered premises” insert—
““exempt producer” means a producer who is not liable under regulation 8A or 8E to make entry of production premises;”.

(5) After the definition of “fuel substitute duty” insert—

Angel The functions of the Commissioners of Customs and Excise were transferred to the Commissioners for Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs by section 5(2) of the Commissioners for Revenue and Customs Act 2005 (c. 11). Section 50(1) of that Act provides that a reference to the Commissioners of Customs and Excise shall be taken to be as a reference to the Commissioners for Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs.
(b) 1979 c.2; section 1(1) defines “the Commissioners” as meaning the “Commissioners of Customs and Excise”. Section 118A was inserted by the Finance Act 1991, Schedule 5 (c.31); there are amendments not relevant to this instrument.
(c) 1979 c.5; section 27(3) applies the definition of “the Commissioners” in section 1(1) of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979 (c.2). Section 6AC was added by section 5(4) of the Finance Act 2002 (c.23). Section 6AF was added by section 10(3) of the Finance Act 2004 (c.12). Paragraph 11 of Schedule 3 was amended by the Finance Act 1985, Schedule 4, paragraph 4 (c.54).
(d) 1992 c.48.
(e) S.I. 2004/2065.

““large producer” means a producer whom the Commissioners have notified is a large producer in accordance with regulation 19A(1) (and that notification has not been withdrawn);”.

Diablo In the definition of “production premises” omit “, and which, if not entered by him, are required by regulation 8 to be entered”.

(7) After the definition of “production premises” insert—
““quarter” means the period of three calendar months commencing on 1st January, 1st April, 1st July and 1st October in any year;
“section 108” means section 108 of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979;”.

(8) After regulation 2(1) insert—
“(2) References to “making entry” are references to making entry under section 108 of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979.”.

Amendment of Part 4

4.—(1) For regulation 8 substitute the following—
“8.—(1) Regulation 8A applies to a producer of biofuel with respect to whom either the first condition or the second condition is satisfied.
(2) The first condition is that at the end of any calendar month the producer has produced 2,500 litres or more of biofuel in the previous 12 months.
(3) The second condition is that at any time there are reasonable grounds to believe that the producer will produce 2,500 litres or more of biofuel in the following 12 months.
8A.—(1) A producer to whom this regulation applies is liable to make entry of all premises at which he has produced or will produce biofuel, but this is subject to regulations 8B and 8C.
(2) A producer liable to make entry of premises must make entry of them not later than the day specified in paragraph (3).
(3) The specified day is—
Angel in the case of a producer with respect to whom the first condition is satisfied, the thirtieth day following the end of the calendar month in question;
(b) in the case of a producer with respect to whom the second condition is satisfied, the thirtieth day following the day on which reasonable grounds arise for believing that he will produce that quantity.
8B. A producer is not liable to make entry of production premises under regulation 8A if he has already entered the premises in accordance with section 108 for—
Angel the purposes of that regulation; or
(b) purposes treated as having effect under that regulation, and
that entry has not been cancelled by the Commissioners under regulation 8F.
8C. A producer who meets the first condition specified in regulation 8(2) ceases to be liable to make entry of production premises if he satisfies the Commissioners that he will produce less than 2,500 litres of biofuel in the 12 months immediately following the date he becomes liable.
8D. A producer to whom regulation 8A applies must not send out from any premises a consignment of biofuel, which is charged with biofuels duty because it is set aside for chargeable use, before he makes entry of those premises.

2
Requirement to make entry of production premises used by several producers
8E.—(1) This regulation applies to two or more producers of biofuel with respect to whom—
Angel the first and second conditions are satisfied; and
(b) either the third condition or the fourth condition is satisfied.
(2) The first condition is that the producers produce biofuel at the same premises or at the same sets of premises (“those premises”).
(3) The second condition is that the producers have not previously made entry of those premises for the purpose of this regulation or the purposes specified in regulation 8(B); or, if they have made such entry, that entry has been cancelled by the Commissioners under regulation 8F.
(4) The third condition is that at the end of any calendar month the total quantity of biofuel produced by all of those producers at all of those premises in the previous 12 months is 2,500 litres or more.
(5) The fourth condition is that at any time there are reasonable grounds to believe that the total quantity of biofuel produced by all of those producers at all of those premises will be 2,500 litres or more in the following 12 months.
Diablo Each producer of biofuel to whom this regulation applies is liable to make entry of all those premises at which he has produced or, there are reasonable grounds to believe, will produce biofuel, but this is subject to paragraph (10).
(7) A producer liable to make entry of those premises under paragraph Diablo must make entry of them not later than the day specified in paragraph (8).
(8) The specified day is—
Angel in the case of a producer with respect to whom the third condition is satisfied, the thirtieth day following the end of the calendar month in question;
(b) in the case of a producer with respect to whom the fourth condition is satisfied, the thirtieth day following the day on which reasonable grounds arise for believing that quantity will be produced.
(9) Each producer to whom this regulation applies must not send out from any of those premises a consignment of biofuel, which is charged with biofuels duty because it is set aside for chargeable use, before he makes entry of those premises.
(10) A producer who meets the third condition ceases to be liable to make entry of those premises if he satisfies the Commissioners that the total quantity of biofuel produced by all of those producers at all of those premises will be less than 2,500 litres of biofuel in the 12 months following the date on which he becomes liable.
Cancellation of an entry of production premises
8F.—(1) The Commissioners may at any time cancel an entry made by a producer in respect of production premises if the Commissioners are satisfied that the producer—
Angel has produced less than 2,500 litres of biofuel in the 12 months immediately preceding the proposed date of cancellation; or
(b) will produce less than 2,500 litres of biofuel in the 12 months immediately following the proposed date of cancellation.
(2) Where two or more producers produce biofuel at the same premises or same sets of premises and the Commissioners are satisfied that the total quantity of biofuel produced by all those producers at all those premises—
Angel is less than 2,500 litres in the 12 months immediately preceding the proposed date of cancellation; or
(b) will be less than 2,500 litres in the 12 months immediately following the proposed date of cancellation,

3
they may cancel the entries of those premises.
(3) The Commissioners must give a producer at least 30 days notice that they propose to cancel an entry before cancelling it.”.

Amendment of Part 5

5.—(1) Amend regulation 13 as follows.

(2) In paragraph (1) after “producer” insert “, other than an exempt producer,”.

6.—(1) After regulation 13 insert—
“13A.—(1) Every exempt producer must keep and preserve at production premises such records as may be specified in a notice published by the Commissioners and not withdrawn by a further notice.
(2) The records required to be preserved by virtue of paragraph (1) must be preserved by the exempt producer for 6 years, or such lesser period as the Commissioner may allow, starting on the day the record is made.”.

Amendment of Part 6

7.—(1) Amend regulation 17 as follows.

(2) In paragraph (1) after the word “biofuel” (where it appears a second time) insert the words “produced by a producer liable to make entry of premises under regulation 8A or 8E(6), who has not made such entry,”.

8.—(1) Amend regulation 19 as follows.

(2) For paragraph (1) substitute—
“(1) The requirements in paragraph (1A) apply to a producer, other than a large producer, in relation to—
Angel each of his entered premises, and
(b) any premises for which he is liable to make entry that have not been entered.
(1A) A producer to whom this paragraph applies must no later than the fifteenth day of each quarter—
Angel furnish a return of the quantities of biodiesel, bioethanol and fuel substitute, and
(b) pay the biofuels duty
in respect of which there was an excise duty point in the preceding quarter.”.

(3) In paragraph (4) for “month” substitute “quarter”.

(4) After paragraph (7) insert—
“(8) Every producer who is a producer on 30th June 2007 must, in relation to each of his entered premises, no later than 13 July 2007 —
Angel furnish a return of the quantities of biodiesel, bioethanol, and fuel substitute; and
(b) pay the biofuels duty,
in respect of which there was an excise duty point in June 2007.”.

9.—(1) After regulation 19 insert—
“Large producers
19A.—(1) The Commissioners may at any time notify a producer that he is a large producer if—
Angel in the 12 months immediately preceding notification the producer has produced 450,000 litres or more of biofuel; or

4

(b) they have reasonable grounds to believe that the producer will produce 450,000 litres or more of biofuel in the 12 months following notification.
(2) The Commissioners may withdraw a notification given to a large producer under paragraph (9) if the producer satisfies them by a statement in writing that—
Angel he has produced less than 450,000 litres of biofuel in the 12 months immediately preceding that statement, and
(b) there are reasonable grounds to believe he will produce less than 450,000 litres of biofuel in the 12 months immediately following that statement.
(3) The requirements in paragraph (4) apply to a producer who is for the time being a large producer in relation to —
Angel each of his entered premises, and
(b) any premises for which he is liable to make entry that have not been entered.
(4) A large producer must no later than the fifteenth day of each month—
Angel furnish a return of the quantities of biodiesel, bioethanol and fuel substitute, and
(b) pay the biofuels duty
in respect of which there was an excise duty point in the preceding month.
(5) Regulations 19(2) to 19(8) apply to large producers as they apply to producers and in the case of regulation 19(4) it so applies with the substitution of “quarter” for “month”.”

Paul Gray
Dave Hartnett
8th June 2007 Two of the Commissioners for Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs
EXPLANATORY NOTE
(This note is not part of the Regulations)
These Regulations, which come into force on 30 June 2007, amend the Biofuels and Other Fuel Substitutes (Payment of Excise Duties etc) Regulations 2004 (“the principal regulations”). They remove the obligations on small producers of biofuels (“exempt producers”) to make an entry of their production premises, make returns of biofuel produced and pay excise duty. They also introduce changes relaxing the frequency with which returns and duty payments must be made by producers other than “large producers”.
Regulation 3 introduces various new definitions into regulation 2 of the principal Regulations including the definition of “exempt producer” and “large producer”.
Regulation 4 amends regulation 8 and inserts regulations 8A to 8F into the principal regulations. The regulations impose a liability on a producer, who meets either of two specified conditions relating to the size of biofuel production, to make entry of those premises within a specified time period. They provide for liability to cease if a producer satisfies the Commissioners that future production will be less than a specified amount. Similar corresponding provision is made in relation to two or more producers producing biofuel in the same premises or sets of premises. A power is conferred on the Commissioners to cancel an entry of premises if they are satisfied that the amount of biofuel produced by producers will be less than specified amounts.
Regulation 5 amends regulation 13. It excludes exempt producers from the requirement to keep a motor fuels record.
Regulation 6 inserts new regulation 13A requiring exempt producers to keep such records as the Commissioners may specify. It stipulates a period of six years for the preservation of these records or such shorter period as the Commissioners permit.
5
Regulation 7 amends the excise duty point in regulation 17(1). It sets an excise duty point (the time at which duty is payable) for biofuel produced by a producer who has not discharged his liability to make entry of those premises under regulations 8A or 8E(6).
Regulation 8 amends regulation 19. It relaxes the frequency with which producers, other than large producers, must make returns and pay duty from monthly to quarterly.
Regulation 9 inserts regulation 19A. It provides for the Commissioners to notify producers, who meet specified conditions, that they are large producers and a cancellation procedure for producers who no longer fall within the specified conditions. It imposes an obligation on large producers to submit monthly returns and pay excise duty monthly. It applies the provisions of regulations 19(2) to (8) to them.
6

Hydrolic fuild, nono

Hydrolic fluid is synthetic these days, not available in a mineral version like engine oil.
It is designed to be put under great pressure and remain stable ie. non conbustable!
due to this reason i would strongly recomend that you dont put it anywhere near your diesel tank!

However 300L of free hydrolic fluid will be very useful for other things! oiling things such as seezed nuts etc. always handy to have an oil bath around! if you can keep it warm (i have a twin hob camping stove under mine, not boiling just warm to hot) it works wonders too!

Mix it in with Real Coal tar Creasoate about 50/50 mix, now thats waterproofing the wood! Doesnt work with Cuprinol and these new crappy water based treatments!
---------------------------------------------------------
If its not broken, Fix it.
If its broken, Hit it.
If its still broken, Hit it some more then get a new one!

---------------------------------------------------------
If its not broken, Fix it.
If its broken, Hit it.
If its still broken, Hit it some more then get a new one!